We created this special episode because the coronavirus has forced a lot of companies to move towards a virtual team. At Summit CPA, we have been virtual since 2013. We have a lot of experience building and scaling a company with an entire staff working from home, so we want to share what we have learned along the way. In this episode, we are joined by Jody Grunden and Adam Hale to talk about best practices for running a distributed company and working remotely. Hopefully, your company will find this helpful if you are being forced into a distributed model due to the current pandemic.
“Creating a dedicated space for your work is one of the most essential things you can do when working from home.” - Adam Hale
The finer details of this episode
Jamie Nau: All right, everybody, welcome to today's podcast. Today is a very special topic because as everybody knows, there's a lot going on in the world with the coronavirus. It's forced a lot of people to have to change their work environments, and work from home, which is something that Summit has been doing for a very long time. We wanted to do our part, and give some tips that we have on working from home. Oftentimes it is in situations like this that force people to realize that working from home isn't that difficult to do. Actually Summit’s work from home model was actually kind of forced into play as well. So I am joined by Adam and Jody on this podcast. I want to start with you Jody, can you tell the story of how Summit started working from home and how it end up working out for us?
Jody Grunden: Yes, sure. We picked up a client back in 2011 that was a completely distributed company. So that means that they work from home. They were kind of unique because they actually started work with the work from home model. So they never had a brick and mortar and then moved to working from home. They actually started completely distributed, and we still have as a client. So over first couple of years were learning from them. Thinking, here's what could be beneficial. Here's the good the bad about working from home, and it was something that we think that our team would embrace, and our clients would embrace because we already were working virtually with our clients—meaning we did video conferencing. We never really met face to face with clients. We do everything over the virtually. So it was kind like, we are working with clients in that manner, could we actually translate that to working from home? So we decided to take a leap of faith. I met with up the team. I thought, maybe they would be pretty excited about it, and found out the contrary. Nobody wanted to work from home. I heard all of the issues that could possibly, potentially happen, by working from home such as: we wouldn't collaborate, I would have kids running around, internet issues. You know, you name it, I heard it. So it was one of those things that I was like, well do we force our entire team, at that point 18 people, to work from home, and possibly lose them? Or do I concede, and build onto our existing building, making it accessible for possibe growth of 30 people over the next 10 years, just like that? So I thought, well, let's go ahead and just spend the money and do it. So we did kick everybody out of the office for the rebuild. Spent about 100 grand, and remodeled the entire office. It took about six weeks to do, originally it was only gong to take four weeks. So I told the team four weeks. Work from home for four weeks, and they did. Then it was kind of funny, because at about the fourth and fifth week, people start commenting saying, you know what? Is it okay if I just work from home going forward? I kind of like it. So I was like, that's cool. So then six weeks came on, and right before I bought the signage to put on the front of the office building, we had just about the entire team, around six to twelve, of the eighteen people decide you know, hey, I think I couldn't do this. So that was pretty cool. So we had room for 30 in the office, and we ended up having six people end up working in the office. It was pretty echoey in there for a real long time. So that’s how it started. Adam, what what's your take on that?
Adam Hale: Yeah, I mean, I was one of those that didn't want to work from home. I came back to the office whenever it got built back. The biggest difference was just your ability to invest at home. You know, I wasn't too concerned about the internet. I was concerned about, you know, the kids. That was a real thing. Also for me is like workspace. I think that's, you know, one of the most essential things you can do from working from home. People are always like, hey, work life balance, I don't know when to separate. Being able to have a dedicated space where you can nest and actually set up, that was the difference. I mean, whenever I would work and do taxes at night, or do some work at night, I was working off of a kitchen table, or off the coffee table in the living room, or something like that, and the kids were coming in, or it would just you have to clean it up every day, that's difficult. But once I was able to establish a desk and a place that was my own, that I didn't ever have to pick up, or reset every single day, it made all the difference. Then coming back into the office, it was kind of more of like, hmm, why am I here? Like, I don't really need to be here. Then the team wasn't even there, you know, or partially not there. Then whenever we had our first distributed employee, that was by happenstance. Her husband had moved away, and we decided, hey, we'll just keep her on. She then noticed there was a bit of a disconnect from a culture standpoint. So that's when, Jody you found Sococo. We then were using that as our virtual office, and we started mandating that even if you were in the office, you had to communicate through the virtual office. You couldn’t go and congregate in a office.
Jody Grunden: And everyone had no problem with that, right?
Adam Hale: Yeah, our biggest hit to that, it wasn't that people minded necessarily like, hiding behind the camera and meeting in the virtual office, people were totally down with that. It was nobody wanted to turn on their camera. And for those of you that don't know Jody, he's usually a pretty passive guy. But he lost his stuff one day, and just basically walked around the office one night, when everybody left, and planted their cameras on their chairs, and basically told everybody, don't come to work if you're not going to turn on your camera. So you know, it was kind of one of those things were they're used to me barking all the time. So it's kind of like, yeah you know, chill out. But whenever Jody did it, it was like, oh, we better turn on our camera.
Jody Grunden: Yeah. It was amazing how all the camera issues and excuses got figured out real quick.
Jamie Nau: It’s still part of our culture, too. I know that oftentimes I'll be in Sococo, and you can tell what people are doing in their room. So oftentimes I'll be sitting there seeing two people talking, and their cameras aren't on. So I will just go knocking on their meeting, pop in and say hey, what's going on here? Are we wearing out pajamas? Why aren’t the cameras on? Then instantly the cameras turn on. But you don't see it that often, because it really is part of our culture, that cameras need to be on. If we're talking to each other, the cameras are on. That is a big part of our culture for sure.
Jody Grunden: Yeah, I think that was one of the big part that people had a real hesitation in going virtual. Can we actually do that? Because all those excuses came out. Like, oh well I can't get the camera to work, or the internet, those things that I mentioned before. But when you’re forced to, it was amazing how they figured it out. And with ours, it was the issue of building a building. We had to gut it out completely. They couldn't actually be in there because of, the construction that was going on. So they had to work from home. Now with the coronavirus going around, it’s the exact same thing. Forced to work inside your home. You kind of figure out all the issues that would be preventing you from doing it. You knocks those obstacles out one at a time.
Adam Hale: It'll be interesting to see how many people, once this all passes over and it's time to go back to the office, how policies change, you know, people being able to work remotely and willing to work remotely more often, like us. It'll be interesting to see how people's attitude change once they have the ability to force themselves to nest, you know, set up the technology, set up the workspace, do all those kind of things really get into a groove. Because once you do, we still have an office, but man I hate going to it. There's just no reason to, you know. So it'll be interesting to see how that translates.
Jody Grunden: Yeah, and we still have an office because I own the building. That’s pretty much the only reason.
All: Laughing [ in audible]
Jamie Nau: So I think we've got two pretty good tips so far. I think Adam's first tip about having a dedicated space where you can nest. I'd like to add that I think a door is huge. I think, especially if you have family at home, whether it's during the summer or whether it's right now, you know, obviously with the coronavirus, kids are home from school. I have had kids here all week, and they know when my door is closed that they cannot come in because I'm either in a meeting, or I'm talking to someone. They just know that it’s my office. Occasionally my door will be opened, and they will pop in. But to add to that. I think that's a big thing. And then, too, I think we've talked about the cameras. Cameras are key. It really helps you keep that family feel. You get to know each other even though you haven’t met face to face. It took a while before I met anyone at Summit when I first started. But I knew people a bit. I recognized Jody at the airport. Other than his height, I knew what he looked like.
Jody Grunden: I was much taller than you expected.
All: Laughing [ in audible]
Adam Hale: What I think a pro tip is, especially now starting to hear all these people that are not used to working from home, trying to navigate that, especially with children at home. I know it's really hip and cool to have your air pods in and all this other stuff, and some people like to just flip up the laptop and talk on the laptop. I personally from day one, I had kids running around at home. At a certain time of day they were all home. All the headsets they come with the ear pieces. They'll have a like a little mute button on their boom, and even the corded ones you can hold in your hand like a Jeopardy clicker. And I mastered turning on and off my mute on a regular basis. Like I'm talking, then I click mute really quick. Then talking. You know, you're not trying to find it on the screen and click mute. You can just hold your hand up by your face and click the boom button on and off. That way whenever the kids are screaming, or somebody comes running in, you can just click mute, and then tell them to be quiet. Click and say, yeah and anyway... It's not always that nice. You do have to slide off camera sometimes. But one of the things that I've noticed about people that aren't used to working from home, with disruptions, is they're trying to still talk to their laptop and manage all the noise around them. It's like if you had the headgear, from a technology standpoint on top of the camera, it's click boom, click boom, click boom, and then it's not that big of a distraction.
Jody Grunden: I think the other thing is that the equipment that you have has got to be consistent with the equipment you are used to working with. So if you are used to a big screen with multiple monitors setup, and then you come home to work on your laptop, that's really tough to adjust to. So I think, you know, you've got to have the same technology set up at home to really, really get the most benefit out of it. Otherwise, it does feel like you're in a hotel room or something and it doesn't have the same feel. It doesn’t have the same workability, I guess, if that's even a term?
Jamie Nau: No I definitely agree with that. I think that the multiple monitors, once you work on them for a week, you're addicted to it. You're used to it, and you really do need it. I think the same goes for everything, chairs, all that stuff. You want to feel completely comfortable in your working space when working from home. You don't want to be in a lounger, or with the TV on in the background, with your laptop just up in your lap in the middle of the living room. You want to actually feel like you're in a workspace. You know, I have work material on the walls. I have work books, like this is truly my work office.
Jody Grunden: I would say a tip there too is if you don’t want to go out and buy multiple monitors, let's say you do have a den with a TV, just convert that TV to a monitor. If it’s a big enough TV to cover as a monitor it will automatically have the separate screens. You can flip to different things and make it a four monitor system, or a three monitor system without having to go and buy something new. So a tip for those that don't want to spend extra money on additional monitors.
Adam Hale: Okay, I got I got a bizarre tip for you that I think works for me personally, because we always talk about the door and the separation, and all that kind of stuff. I'm harassing my children about that now that they're home all the time. My particular tip irritates my wife every day. I get ready for work and I put my shoes on. She's always like, why do you put your shoes on when you're just walking into the den, like you're not going anywhere? And for me personally, it's almost like, if I'm just walking around in my shoes it feels like I'm laying in the living room with the laptop on my lap. I need to put my shoes on and come in. Of course you need to dress up from the neck up we always joke, you know, for the camera and stuff like that. So you can put the give up pants on and have the sweatpants. But there's something mentally for me about putting on shoes that I feel like I'm, in the moment, or doing something. Then if I walk out the den door, ready to associate with family, I kick off the shoes. I just noticed that I did that for a long time. Then also she kept calling me out on it, and I'm like, well, that's probably the way I break from it all. I know you've got a weird one, Jamie.
Jamie Nau: Yeah, what I would I made a point of, again when I took this job a lot of people thought I was crazy because they're like, you're an extrovert. Your favorite part of work is talking to people like, you know, where you're at work for eleven hours, you spend five of it just talking to people because that's who you are. So one of the things that was important to me was to keep my routines. So I basically did not change what I was doing, whether I was driving to an office, or walking into my home office. So I kept my workout routine. I do the exact same thing that I did when I was working at an office. Like I go to the gym, I work out, I shower there. I get dressed. I talk to people, I come home and go to go back to my office downstairs. So I basically have kept my routine exactly the same. Obviously that's a little different now because the gyms are all closed here in Colorado, but again, I'm still trying to do the same thing. Instead of going to the gym, I’ll go outside and go for a run, and do something in those early morning hours that I used to do at the gym, because I don't want to lose that routine. I am the same Adam. I was laughing as you were saying that, I do the same thing. I've never worked a day in my life without my shoes on. I get dressed. I do the exact same morning routine I did when I was going to the office. It's just now, I am going downstairs. So, yeah, I think that's one of the keys for me was making sure that I kept those routines up that I had when I was working at an office.
Jody Grunden: It's kind of funny because, Jamie mentioned that he's an extrovert. Adam and I are also extroverts, big time extroverts. So you think that would hamper the feeling of not being around people. I now feel like I'm around people more than I ever did in an brick and mortar office. I'm actually meeting several different people a day. So eye contact is huge when you're meeting with people. And it’s not just all over video, we do have meetups where we actually do physically get a chance to meet everybody in person. That's also part of the long term deal if you decide to use this as a long term medium.
Jamie Nau: I think what goes with that, and this is the advice I've given, it’s a little bit outside of this realm, but you can choose who you hang out with a little bit more when you work from home. So again, I love the people I work with, and I do have a lot of really cool conversations with both Adam and Jody, and my other co-workers. But at the same time, like I have more time for other people because those couple of hours I have in the morning playing basketball with my friends, that is chosen time that I'm choosing. Versus in the past, I would be spending eleven hours at the office just hanging out with co-workers because those were the only people who were around. So you can kind of choose those things you're going to do, whether it's go upstairs and have lunch with your wife or, you know, organize a lunch meet up with one of your friends you haven't seen for a while. It's a lot easier doing that when you work from home. But again, it's still about getting back, getting focused and getting back to work after you're done with those type of things. I think that it is important. Even sometimes too, volunteering. That's another way to do it. You want to spend some time talking to people? Why not go and volunteer for an hour? Do something like that at the end of the day so you can choose who you're spending time with, versus a forced relationship with your co-workers.
Jody Grunden: So what I heard from that, Adam, is that he doesn't like hanging around us…
Adam Hale: That’s what I was picking up too..
All: Laughing [ in audible]
Jamie Nau: I was talking about my previous job.
All: Laughing [ in audible]
Jamie Nau: But you know what I am talking about. When you are in the office for 13 hours, yes, you're talking to people, and yes you enjoy spending time with them, but sometimes it's like, you know, I'd rather be like hanging out with my friends in high school or something like that.
Adam Hale: I really do think, like, what could get exhausting for people that aren't used to it or feel weird initially is, you know, just to recap on some of that stuff, is to get a dedicated space. Have a door if you can. Make sure you nest properly with great technology camera, an appropriate headset. You know, we've got a Logitech. That's pretty good. Plantronics, there's a couple out there with some really good range. You got the boom, you got all that kind of stuff. I really think, you know, technology is key. But then getting up and getting ready, if you were suited up to get to work every day, put on your suit. It's a mental shift. You know I mentioned harassing my kids, like the kids get up and they're in their pajamas and they're just kind of sitting around. Now with them being home it’s like, no get ready for school like you usually do. You have some e-learning? If you don't have e-learning, I don't care. Get up. Get ready for the day. It's a total different mind shift.
Jody Gruden: And I would say the biggest thing we haven't mentioned yes is just communicating or ways to communicate in the same way. So if you're doing video conferencing, either recommend, you know, like a Zoom, GoTo Meeting, or Sococo, something that you can communicate with and communicate often. And again, camera is huge. So communication is a big part. Don't go home and just hide. Be available. People need to know that when you're available, they need to know that they can get with you. A lot of times, just making phone calls back and forth isn’t the right way to be doing it, because we can all be on a phone call to the client, and try to get hold of both of them, and then I can't get hold of either one of them. Then it doubt starts creeping in, are they actually working? Are they ignoring me? You know, what's going on? They're probably ignoring me, that’s part of the case, they definitely should actually be working. But you know doubt starts creeping in your mind, and that's not good. You don't want that. So we use a product called Sococo, which is a great environment to have. You can actually see people, you can see when they're available and when they're not available. You can share screens and collaborate. It's a really cool tool. There's other tools out there like that. But you really need to find a tool and adapt to it pretty quickly. If it's on a temporary basis, having Sococo for a month is a heck of a lot better than trying to play phone tag with 20 different people, and trying to get conference calls together. And you know what a hassle. You know, you need to figure out who has the right tool to make that communication a lot easier.
Jamie Nau: Yeah, we have a lot of set meetings in our schedule and I think anybody's listening to this podcast is the same way. But with this tool called Sococo, you can go outside of those set meetings. So if I just need to talk to Adam for three minutes, and I can see that he's in his office by himself, I can go knock on his office door, virtually pop in there, pop the camera's up, ask the question, he's going to answer the question, and I can move on. And I think that that's what a tool like Sococo does. It just seems less formal than, hey, Adam, I need to talk. Let's look at our calendar and see when I can find those 50 minutes. It's just much more informal, and you get a lot more done that way. So I think that is the big benefit with Sococo. It feels like a real office. I can just pop into anybody’s office. I think, again, if any company moving to the distributed model, whether it's for a month, two months or maybe thinking about doing this permanently, I would definitely recommend a virtual office just because it adds that a bit of flexibility in terms of those meetings. You're not having to look at your calendar to make those conversations.
Adam Hale: The reality is this I mean, emails are frustrating because you wait like five minutes to hear back from people. You can work through Slack and hide a little bit. You can even send people like Zoom or GoTo Meeting invites. We did that for a little while, like we were having some issues with some of our technology, and we went to, you know, going into breakout meetings and stuff. It just felt weird. It feels super formal. It doesn't feel like an office. It doesn't feel, you know, like a very collaborative environment. But whenever you can see everybody on a board, and just see who's hanging out, who's not, and knock on somebody's door like you said for just a second ago. Pop in and share screens, and then pop out, it’s a big difference. So Sococo is a lifesaver for any kind of virtual office.
Jody Grunden: And we've been virtual since 2013. So it's been a long road. Lots of trial and error for sure. But I would say communication is the biggest thing that you really need to get on top of right away to make everything work. And having the right tools like us a Sococo, like a Zoom, GoTo meeting, whatever that might be is going to be really imperative for this to be a success. A win for everyone that's home because, you know, it's kind of funny because you may go into this looking and thinking, wow, this is a really bad thing, this disruption. But you may come out of it with like wow, this was kind of blessing in disguise, because now you figured it out. Instead of only having your team work from home on Friday’s, or whatever your policy might be at the time, maybe this is could work, and you could really save a lot of money over time if you actually did go distributed, and look at all the new employees you could actually hire, you know, throughout the United States versus just in our local area. It really opens up a lot of a lot of cool avenues that you really don't think about. You know, we get a couple thousand resumes a year for jobs from really cool people, you know, partners of accounting firms, graduates for college. I mean, we get some really solid, solid people, I'd say at least 40 to 50 percent of those, anybody in this audience would hire if they're looking for an accounting person. You know, we could get that opportunity all the time where I know the job market is pretty tough for everyone else. So it does open a lot of opportunities for sure. You just have to make sure you tackle it right. You know, don't jump into it without really thinking how to succeed. Take these tips for sure and see what you can actually do with them, because this could be a really, really big turning point for your company.
Adam Hale: Yeah, and I think some of the other things that we save some money on too, which is kind of a big deal, is we went without a server a few years back. You know, we were doing terminal servers, and doing all that kind of networking and stuff. And we made a pretty big push to make sure that all of our software was cloud based. And then we really just needed file servers at that point. So, you know, we use SharePoint right now. And so the team can access all the files. Security obviously is a big component of that. So we use tools like, Box Scripter to make sure that if somebody has a laptop, or a computer at home is exposed, no files can be read on that computer without having that in there. And we use tools like LastPass to make sure that everybody can share passwords, but they're not exposed, they're randomly generated, they're very large and unique. Those are some other big tools for working from home.
Jody Grunden: Yeah, and if you're not familiar with our company, we are basically a CPA firm, we do 401(k) audits. We do about oh, a couple hundred 401(k) audits a year. We do virtual CFO services. We have over one hundred and ten, one hundred fifteen clients that we've do virtual CFO services and do taxes as well. So we kind of run the gamut when it comes to a CPA firm. So all the functions that a typical CPA firm can do, we can do to the unique part about us is that we don't actually go to a person's location. So everything is done completely virtual. So not only are we working from home with the team, we are also working with our clients completely virtual. From the audits, to the tax, to the CFO work. And we've been able to be very successful, a lot of growth, and we'll top about seven million dollars in revenue this year. So, again, high trajectory growth rate, you know, based on, you know, being able to implement this model as well as we've done.
Adam Hale: Yeah everybody talks about efficiency all the time. I mean, think about all the commute time you save in the morning, think about all the commute time you save going back and forth. The clients, if you're in the accounting space and you're doing that kind of stuff, it's just really nice to be able to shift meetings. You are running a little late in the afternoon you can just bump the client and say, I’ll virtually meet you fifteen minutes. No big deal. Can't do that, really whenever you get a line sitting outside your door.
Jody Grunden: Or you have to drive to somebody’s location.
Jamie Nau: I think the other thing, too, we talked about the tools we use. In an interesting experience I had when this quarantine kind of started. I was talking to some guy that's a professor at a college nearby, and he was talking about having to work from home and talking about a whiteboard. He's like oh, I'm going to work without a whiteboard. So I'm like, dude, I promise you, there is some app out there that is a virtual whiteboard that you can be able to use in your classroom. And we Google it on our phones, and we found one. And so I think that's the other thing, it's crazy to know the tools that are out there nowadays for people that are working virtually. So don't be afraid to just do a couple of different Google searches if something is missing from your workplace. We've found the things that work for us. Sococo works for us, SharePoint, Dropbox, Boxcryptor, all of these different tools work for us. But I think the interesting thing is, if there's a challenge presented, I promise you someone is outside that challenge with a way to fix it. And so I think there's a lot of other things out there that you can use that are more specific for your organization. Whether you're a creative agency, or your CPA firms a little bit different than ours, I think you're going to be able to find a tool that will really help you meet those needs. So from that, I am going to throw our email address out there real quick here before I ask the final question. So again, we have two e-mail addresses for this podcast because this is a dual podcast. So for our CPA firms out there, you can email us at: email@example.com. And for our creative agencies, you can e-mail us at: firstname.lastname@example.org. So again, those are two email addresses. If you have any questions, if you have any topics for us, we’d love to make this podcast really tailored for our listeners. So please reach out to us if you won't be a guest on the show. That would be great as well. So, yeah, that's our two e-mail addresses out there. So before we move on, Jody, Adam, any final thoughts that you guys have that we need to make sure you have listeners know about in terms of working from home during these difficult times?
Adam Hale: I would just throw out there, and maybe Jamie, you can talk about it because I know I saw on the Slack channel you throw it out there. You had Alyssa, one of our team members, throw out some stuff there, right?
Jamie Nau: Yup. So one thing we did at Summit is, obviously this is a very stressful time. I think this is something that my wife saw, honestly for our kids. It’s like the routine that our kids go through is really important to them. So one of the things she's done is she's created a schedule for them. So I thought, I'm sure Summit people are dealing with as well. So what we do is we created a challenge, you know, just to make sure you are doing things. So basically how ours works is you get points for doing certain things. You get points for cooking a homemade meal, you get points for going for a walk outside. You get points for doing push-ups. We basically came up with like 10 items that you can get different points for, and every time you get over 50 points, we're going to reward with different things. So that's something we did just to make sure you stay in your routine, and you aren't finding yourself locked in your room all day just working all the time. You want to make sure you do keep those routines. You do keep healthy, and you do keep your brain strong, and thinking about things you can do outside of just working. I think that's really important, and so far we've had great participation. It's created a lot of good conversations. We've already had like a sub thread of people posting I think like 50 YouTube recipes that they've used. So it's really created more sense of teamwork across the team too, as well. So that's one thing that we've done. I appreciate you pointing that out Adam. I think it's worked really well so far.
Jody Grunden: I would say the biggest thing, is going into this as not a negative. You know, it's not a oh, man, I've got to work from home. You know, my company is going to go out of business, you know, that type of situation. You have to look at it as a positive, turn into positive. Say this is a great opportunity to try to figure this out. You know, we may figure it out and maybe it’s something that we don't want to do again. And that's cool. But it may be one of those things that you can figure out and say you know what, this is something that could really be a benefit. I think that's the biggest thing, it’s just the mindset. You know, turning the negative out in the world into a positive is really huge, and getting this implemented. I know we could not have done it if we didn't have a positive attitude at the very beginning. You know if we didn't think, hey, this can be done, and didn’t push everybody out there because they didn't think we could do it, because they had the mindset that it couldn't be done. But then they figured it out and everything changed. It was definitely huge for us because. Like I mentioned before, we had 18 people when we did that back in 2013. And we were we constructing the building for 30 people thinking in 10 years we'd be able to fill that up. You know, that's kind of what we were hoping to do. Now we're at 50 plus people. You know, we would've had to buy two buildings of that size. That would have been disaster in that in that short period of time. But we wouldn't have been able to grow if we weren't with this distributed model because the amount of clients we would pick up a year, would outpace the ability to actually pick up good talent to service those clients. So we were able to solve all of that because of this model. So I would definitely look at it not on the negative round. Hey, I have to work from home, but look at it like, how am I going to make the best out of this. How can I make this something that we could possibly implement going forward? You might be surprised what the results are.
Adam Hale: Yeah this is where the innovation really happens. When people’s hands are forced like this. There's always really good things that come out of it.
Jamie Nau: So that's a great point. I think the attitude is everything. The way you approach everything in life. Have a positive approach and a positive mindset, it's going to work out for the best. Great point. Awesome, well I appreciate you guys jumping on with me this afternoon. I know this was a good topic because it's very relevant right now. So I appreciate you guys talking about it.
Jody Grunden: Yeah next time we will have to have someone on that actually likes to work with us, if that’s okay, Adam?
All: Laughing [ in audible]