Jeff Bartsch, founding communication strategist at Story Greenlight, joins Adam and Tom to discuss the power of storytelling in the accounting industry. Jeff emphasizes the importance of human connection through strategic communication. He explains how storytelling is not just about creating narratives but a powerful tool that helps to connect with clients and translate financial data into meaningful insights for growth. The episode highlights the transformational impact of effective communication on client relationships and business growth.
“These aren't just numbers; numbers represent things that people care about, and when you start thinking about it that way, that's when you get clients who stay with you for life.” –Jeff Bartsch
The finer details of this episode:
Episode resources:
Timestamps:
Introduction (00:00:00)
Welcoming listeners to the podcast and discussing the upcoming conversation with Jeff Bartsch.
Demystifying Storytelling (00:00:22)
The importance of storytelling in becoming a better communicator and advisor in the accounting industry.
Jeff Bartsch's Background (00:02:00)
Jeff Bartsch introduces himself, highlighting his background in communication strategy and thought leadership coaching, including his experience in Hollywood.
The Power of Storytelling (00:03:49)
Jeff Bartsch shares a personal experience about the transformative power of storytelling and its impact on human connection.
Transition to Accounting Industry (00:05:51)
Jeff Bartsch explains his transition from Hollywood to working with the accounting industry, emphasizing the importance of human connection and trust-building in the accounting profession.
Strategic Communication and Storytelling (00:10:15)
Discussion on the strategic level of storytelling, including the definition of a story and its impact on communication with clients.
Virtual CFO Playbook Advertisement (00:13:08)
An advertisement for a virtual CFO playbook, offering essential tools for creating and delivering scalable CFO services.
Strategic Communication and Tough Questions (00:15:20)
Exploring the role of strategic communication in asking tough questions and guiding clients through challenging financial situations.
Empathy in Strategic Storytelling (00:16:55)
Jeff Bartsch discusses the importance of empathy in strategic storytelling and understanding the deeper motivations of clients beyond just the numbers.
The importance of strategic storytelling (00:20:28)
Strategic storytelling as a crucial element in client advisory services, influencing clients' perceptions and willingness to pay.
The experience of creating the movie (00:21:38)
Drawing parallels between mastering tools in Hollywood and applying that to client advisory services to create a powerful experience.
Adapting communication strategies in the digital age (00:23:19)
Discussing the evolving role of digital platforms and technologies in communication strategies, and the importance of making tools invisible in client interactions.
Maintaining the human element in the age of AI (00:26:27)
Addressing the challenge of preserving the human element in client advisory services amidst technological advancements like AI.
The power of asking great questions (00:27:48)
Emphasizing the significance of asking powerful questions to uncover clients' true desires and needs, guiding them to find their own answers.
Avoiding pitfalls in client communication (00:36:08)
Identifying pitfalls, such as hammering on different problems and telling tactical stories for the wrong reasons and emphasizing the role of the advisor as a guide rather than self-promotion.
Strategic Communication and Storytelling (00:40:18)
Discussion on the use of storytelling in strategic communication and how it can guide strategic conversations in the accounting industry.
De-escalating Client Situations (00:41:14)
The importance of starting with common ground to de-escalate client situations and guide them towards a different plan.
The Power of Storytelling and Neuroscience (00:42:23)
Exploration of the brain's response to storytelling and the impact on contentious conversations, emphasizing the need to start from a common ground.
Differentiating as an Advisor (00:43:27)
The significance of building the skill of making connections with clients as a key differentiator for a good advisor.
Jeff's Hollywood Experience (00:43:58)
Jeff shares his experience of meeting Britney Spears in Hollywood and reflects on the impact of her celebrity status.
Closing Remarks and Podcast Promotion (00:45:40)
The conclusion of the conversation and promotion of the podcast for more tips and strategies in the accounting industry.
Intro (00:00:00) - Welcome to the modern CPA Success Show, the podcast dedicated to helping accounting firms stay ahead of the curve. Our mission is to provide you with the latest and greatest insights on cutting edge tools, innovative marketing strategies, virtual CFO services, and alternative billing methods. Join us as we change the way people think about accounting.
Tom (00:00:22) - Adam, we're about to talk to Jeff Bartsch today. What do you think our listeners are going to get out of this podcast if they pay attention?
Adam (00:00:30) - Yeah, huge resource for us internally as well. I think the biggest thing is just demystifying storytelling. I think it's a key component to being an advisor, and we hear about it all the time. What does it mean? What are the tools that we can use? I think he's really good about kind of breaking that down for us and telling us, you know, some really good practical tips on how to become better communicators.
Tom (00:00:50) - I agree, and true to what he does, he's going to give some stories to get people really good examples of how this can work in practice.
Tom (00:00:58) - And you'll hear me say this. I think it's a key differentiator being a good advisor, being a great advisor. If we follow some of the tips that he talks about and do this well, I think it's a game changer for people.
Adam (00:01:08) - Yeah. Very important.
Tom (00:01:11 ) - Great. I hope people really enjoy this. All right. We're really excited for this version of the modern CPA success show. we've talked storytelling in the past. We're really going to dig into that today. I am Tom Wadelton. I am joined by my usual co-host, Adam Hale. Adam, welcome.
Adam (00:01:26) - Hey, Tom.
Tom (00:01:28) - And our guest today, Jeff Bartsch. And I will say from the beginning, right before I turn it over to you, Jeff, we have worked with you for a while, and I've personally worked with you trying to get better at my own story telling and communication. So, I'm really excited for this conversation that we have, and just letting people know that this is something where we are drinking this Kool-Aid and saying, this is something we can really use in doing this.
Tom (00:01:48) - So, Jeff, do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our to our guests and kind of say career story, kind of what got you to where you are today? Working with us,
Jeff (00:01:57) - for sure. Yeah. My name is Jeff Bartsch and I'm a communication strategist.
Jeff (00:02:00) - And thought leader coach for the accounting industry. Now, some people think that communication skills are these squishy, undefined things that are kind of in the category of nice to have instead of need to have. I believe that communication skills are, at their core, human connection skills. And when we're talking human connection, those are a must have when it comes to keeping clients, keeping your team members, and growing your business. So when people look at me, they look at they they look me up online. Most of the time they see that, oh, well, Jeff, you spent 20 years in Hollywood, which is true. I spent about 20 years working with content shaping, shaping content for ABC and NBC and universal and Disney and Apple and Netflix and a whole bunch of others.
Jeff (00:02:48) - And I thought that TV and movies were really the point of what Hollywood does. And what I've come to realize is that it's something much more powerful, much more fundamental to human connection than that. And the first time that I actually really experienced that was a moment when I was a kid, and it just kind of ended up setting up the entire rest of my life. And entirely what happens with the clients that I serve now. So, most of that, for the first 20 years of my life, I was known as Jeff the piano guy, and I was playing Bach and Mozart Sunday mornings all the time and getting all my reps in mostly and Sunday mornings at church. And everyone said, Jeff, you're such an amazing piano player. There was a day when an older musician at church came up to me and said, you know, Jeff, it's nice to be able to play the notes on the page. You're doing the best that you can. Well, when you get older, you need to learn how to play from your soul.
Jeff (00:03:49) - And when I heard it say that, you know, I was 10 or 11 years old and I was in elementary school, and I thought that was the dumbest thing I'd heard in my life.
Adam (00:03:59) - Right. It was like, in fairness to a 10 or 11 year old, maybe it was. Yeah. Because next thing you know, you're going.
Jeff (00:04:06) - To start talking about emotions. I'm going. Emotions are dumb. Just forget that. So that so that was the thing that she said. And I just ignored her for years until I actually learned what it took to go beyond the basics, the fundamentals of playing the piano and actually to bring the music to life. And when I started doing that, people's reactions started changing. Instead of saying, Jeff, you're an amazing piano player, they would say, Jeff, that song was the exact song that I needed to hear today that thank you so much for playing that song. And then they would say every once in a while, Jeff, the way you showed up today brought me into an encounter with God.
Jeff (00:04:49) - And so that happened. When that stuff started happening, I thought, okay, this is way bigger than me. There's something powerful going on. And number one, I need to get my ego out of the way because this is about serving others and making more of this happen. And what I had realized was I had found a way to just go beyond the basics and elevate those notes on the page into something extraordinary. And that's what I ended up doing. Ever since. Ever since I was four. I'm 45 years old now. That's literally what I've been doing my entire life is taking an ordinary message, elevating it to something extraordinary, and helping other people do that for themselves. So that's how I ended up making TV in Hollywood for 20 years. The next question is usually, okay, so how on earth did you end up in the accounting industry after spending? Seems like a.
Adam (00:05:40) - Natural jump, Jeff. I mean, why not natural transition? So, another cool. I mean, go ahead and explain it, but I'm I got a feeling it's just going to feel really, really natural.
Tom (00:05:50) - Yeah.
Jeff (00:05:51) - Well, as most stories go, it's a bunch of winding and dead ends that I won't, that I won't tell you about, but just suffice it to say, it took a lot of me banging my head against the wall. Because early in my career in television, here I am. I'm literally living the dream, being a professional storyteller in the storytelling capital of the world. I saw myself hitting an income ceiling, and I wanted to start bringing in more streams of income. So, I've always been a teacher or a coach in some way. I started doing that. I started teaching people who wanted to do what I was doing, be full time television editors, and that worked great until I broadened my target market, and I started offering things to people who didn't think they actually had a problem and didn't have money to pay to get it fixed anyway. And that was really, really hard for business until I finally realized that the core outcome of storytelling is not just warm fuzzies, it's human connection.
Jeff (00:06:49) - And I said, okay, how can we get this to people who need to build trust, to build empathy and understanding? And that's when I started moving more towards professional experts, consultants and coaches. And a year ago at this point, this is when I had a conversation with Jamie Na and Jodi Grondin talking about this. And we continue the conversation. And I've been working with you guys ever since. So accounting shows me so.
Adam (00:07:20) - So you had. So, you had to find somebody that was one not very good at it clearly. And then two people that had the ability to pay.
Jeff (00:07:29) - Well, let's to be fair, to be fair accountants.
Jeff (00:07:34) - You know, the accounting industry is not known for razzle dazzle in public facing appearance. But what I will say, what I didn't know a year ago was how much of a rock star you guys are because everyone talks about I is scary. Oh, everything's being outsourced. Oh, this is all scary. We need to move more towards advisory and but that means that we have to have clean numbers, which means we need to have accounting services, not just compliance service.
Jeff (00:08:00) - Okay. Well, we need to have that and it needs to be all cloud based. And oh that's a lot of work. You look over at summit, they're like, yeah we've been doing all that for years. We're good.
Adam (00:08:11) - Right. Yeah. But you got the last stage like you said is, is also you know creating those relationships and, and you know making sure that you're connecting with the people and you can translate those, those numbers into something meaningful for the client. Because you know, kind of what we always talk about all the time is, you know, a client can read their own income statement and their balance sheet. The problem is, is they don't really know what to do with it. And so, I definitely, and I'm interested in hearing your kind of perspective on strategy as it relates to these communication skills, because we always hear that word like be a strategic advisor, be a trusted advisor in those kind of things. And we know the trust relationship is something you have to build over time, and you have to do it with having a certain amount of professionalism and business acumen.
Adam (00:08:58) - You know, it's kind of permission to play whenever you're working with a client. So, you can kind of slowly build that up. but whenever you're talking about, you know, the financial numbers and everything, what I keep hearing from clients. And so this is this is going to be the question to you is how strategy fits into your strategy and really empathy because those can kind of be two different, two different things into your storytelling. Because what I always hear from clients whenever I say, well, what does strategy mean to you? And then they get very specific. They're like, oh, what do I do with this? And what do I do with that? And I'm like, yeah, but the common themes that I kind of hear is one, they want us to have an opinion, you know, because there's a difference between being a subject matter expert and like, just opining on their information. And there's another thing to help guide the client. So having an opinion is important. It doesn't mean we're shoving it down their throat and saying, this is what you have to do.
Adam (00:09:48) - But having an opinion is important to them because they need that and then asking tough questions. Those are the two common themes that I always hear. Like that's my definition, generally speaking of business strategy. But then it's how do you incorporate that kind of thought process and communication in storytelling, working with your clients? So, I guess, you know, that's the question, how does that kind of how do those things kind of, you know, intersect?
Jeff (00:10:15) - Sure. Well, I will say one of the big things that I've realized since my time in, in Hollywood is that people think that story is the answer I make. Good grief. I mean, you sit in Hollywood, you think, oh, everything is about story. It's this magic wand. You just wave over things and things magically get better. And it seems like if you're in Hollywood, because that's what drives the whole, financial model, the whole financial engine of Hollywood. But once you get into business, you realize that there are powerful conversations that go down every day.
Jeff (00:10:50) - And a lot of times a traditional story doesn't even come into the picture. So. So that really made me scratch my head for a while, saying, okay, well, is story really the answer? But there's powerful communication. I mean, there's sales. I mean, you can write a headline, you can just talk, have a conversation and give a pitch to someone and they say, yes, so what's the bigger thing above that? And so, here's what I'd like to offer in terms of what is strategic communication. The thing that I always talk about with my clients is the idea of the definition of what a story is, and the fact that it operates on the tactical level, as in telling a story over the water cooler, like the things that we always know about. But then the bigger picture that drives everything happens at the 40,000 foot strategic level. And that strategic level is all about the definition of the story. And this comes from some of the early writings of Donald Miller, who, if you're familiar with building a story brand, some of his early fiction writings talk about this.
Jeff (00:11:54) - And then I've expanded on it and it goes like this. The definition of a story is where a character wants something. Overcomes obstacles to get it and experiences transformation as a result. I'm telling you, if you're right, those phrases down and you put them on your wall and you start applying them, they will have an effect on every communication you have with any, with any human being for any reason, ever. And if it sounds like I'm exaggerating, I promise I'm not. It's that big.
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Tom (00:13:08) - So given the emphasis you just put on it.
Jeff (00:13:10) - Yeah.
Tom (00:13:11) - Someone might have said, oh, I missed what he said. Can you repeat one more time? You said, this is really important. So, someone who was about to rewind.
Jeff (00:13:16) - Hey everyone, this is a big deal.
Tom (00:13:20) - Yes. Just one more repetition around that.
Jeff (00:13:20) - So, it is. The definition of a story is when a character wants something, overcomes obstacles to get it, and experiences transformation as a result.
Tom (00:13:31) - Thank you.
Jeff (00:13:32) - And when you have that. You can boil this down to core forces of character, identity, desire, obstacles, and the change the transformation that you want to see happen. And when you talk about communication within the context of identity, desire, obstacles, and change, you've got narrative forces operating at the same level of gravity. That is a really, really big deal. So, when you talk about having an opinion, Adam, the idea of having an opinion and asking tough questions. You look back at this definition, you say, okay, who are the story? What are the storylines in place.
Jeff (00:14:15) - So say it's an advisor is talking with the client and the you know. But Tom, I know you've been in this position all the time. You're looking at the numbers and you're saying, okay. There's a runway here. There's a cash burn. This runway is not endless, and the client isn't seeing this. So, you are the advisor who says, okay, I want to help the client realize that they need to change something and what's getting in their way. Well, they don't see it yet, so I need to help them see that. Meanwhile, you have this opposing storyline happening where your client says, oh, no, you know, it's going to work out. We're, you know, we got pipeline stuff going on. We've, you know, we're working on deals. And you're saying, dude. You know. How are we going to? You have to. You have an opinion of what you think might be necessary. Yeah. You have to ask those tough questions.
Jeff (00:15:20) - That's where the stuff starts. Getting boots on the ground. It goes from the strategic down to the tactical, asking those tough questions.
Tom (00:15:28) - Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but just. I just had a conversation with the client similar to that where they're in trouble and they don't see it. So, what I did was, okay, let me say your sales for the last six months, which have been low, if I just say if that continues at this rate, you're going to run out of cash as of this date. And they had a couple places where they poked around and said, are you right? And then they got convinced. And then the sales guy was all upset, like, I don't want to be in a company that's that small, which was perfect because I said, okay, this is what you've been doing. How are you going to change the sales to where it goes up? But what I'm telling you is if you don't, what decision would you make? And we started talking about salary reductions or reducing people or things that we could do to cut cost.
Tom (00:16:10) - But it was, I think, similar to what you're saying is I tried to get them onto the same kind of story. They wanted to poke a little bit on the facts, but I sort of forced them to deal with this model. If this is what you're looking at, what would you do around that? And we had a pretty productive conversation around that
Jeff (00:16:25) - Awesome.
Adam (00:16:26) - So Jeff, with that, then where does empathy kind of, you know, how does that play a role in, you know, strategic storytelling? Because, you know, because to some degree, I mean, you got to kind of meet people where they are emotionally a little bit as well. in those conversations and I think in general practice, we're kind of, you know, by the book just numbers people. We're very binary in our delivery. So how does that kind of how do you address that, I guess.
Jeff (00:16:55) - Yeah, that's part of the whole that's part of the whole thing. Because when you look at that big picture, we, you know, we always hear about, okay, we'll sell with the audience in mind, communicate with the audience in mind.
Jeff (00:17:07) - And that's 100% true. Unfortunately, a lot of the time, if one is technically minded, especially in the accounting world, when you say, well, hey, here are the numbers and you don't actually, you don't actively think about what's happening in the heart and mind of the client. That's where the disconnect happens. And I got to tell you, there is this amazing thing that happened with Hannah, with Hannah Hood, one of the virtual CFOs on the summit team, where we were working one on one. And I asked her, you know, how things happened with what's happening with clients, you know, in terms of a scenario that we could work with for one of the communication tools. And she said, oh, absolutely. Here's working with a client who is a CEO of an agency, and she is looking at a number which represents her company's EBITDA. And she wants to protect the future value of her company because she wants to exit eventually. The flip side of that is, she really, really cares about her people.
Jeff (00:18:13) - And she was looking at the numbers and she's going, I want to take care of my people. But man, I also want to protect for this. And so Hannah and I were talking about, okay, so what are the core things? What one of the other concepts that I talk about is the concept of the thing under the thing, so many people talk about what's on the surface. So, it's just like an iceberg, you see. Just the tip of the iceberg. But the real bulk, the real mass, is hiding under the surface, and that's what really matters. So, when people talk about the things that they care about, that stuff is attached to things deep under the surface, either mentally or psychologically. And so, Hannah and I were talking about, okay, so what are the things under the things for your client? And so, it came down to this idea of, well, she's really she, she cares about the future value of her company, but she cares about her people now.
Jeff (00:19:03) - And she feels like she has to choose between the two. And she has it. She feels like it's a binary kind of a scenario. And so we kept talking and Hannah came up with this idea that's this image of a scale where it's like, okay, well, what if you could do both? How? What if you could balance both of them? And she said, you know what, I know how to adjust my forecast. And she told me later that when she met with that client, that CEO client, the next time she said, I understand that you really want to protect the value of your company. You want to take care of your people. Now, here are some ways that we can do both. And here's what would need to happen to sales in order for that to happen. And the CEO's client said, oh, well, I can do that. I mean, and Hannah told me, she said she could literally see the weight lifting off her clients shoulders. And at the buy, the next thing you know, the client is in tears of happiness because she was so relieved that she didn't have to choose between her future with her company and her people now.
Jeff (00:20:11) - I mean, that's when you can say, okay, these aren't just numbers. Numbers represent things that people care about. And when you start thinking about that, when you dig into that, that's when you get clients who stay with you for life. Yeah.
Tom (00:20:28) - It's a great story. You've got me thinking about what I've come to believe is maybe one of the biggest selling pieces. So just back up quickly. Adam and I do a lot of coaching of other accountants who want to do virtual CFO and advising work, individual conversations. A lot of the conversations go something like, can you tell me more about your tools in your process? Because I don't offer currently, like a forecast is one of the big ones or cash flow or things like that. That's where they focus. The other very common question is, I can't believe you guys can get away with charging an average of $60,000 or more per year for the work that you do. How could I do that? And what I'm coming to believe is if you can't get the advisory kind of stuff down with communications and strategic storytelling, you probably can't charge that much, because even a really good forecast, if all you're going to do is present a set of numbers and say, here are the numbers.
Tom (00:21:17) - What do you think, client I think they're accurate. Why would someone pay a lot versus that kind of story, if that kind of thing happens with Hannah, where I know you all have to know all about you, and I can communicate it well to make those connections and give that advice. All of a sudden you got people paying. I would pay a lot for that. And to your point, you've got a customer for a really long time because of that.
Jeff (00:21:38) - Yeah. Well, here's something that I've been thinking about a lot. There was a time in my Hollywood years, I was at Warner Brothers Studios at a panel, and there was a guy who was one of the guests on the panel who was a rerecording mixer. He was a staff rerecording mixer at Warner Brothers. And he was, you know, so what he does every day, he sits in a movie theater in his own personal movie theater with a mixing console that literally stretches across the room. It's just this massive thing.
Jeff (00:22:09) - And someone asked him, how do you stay on top of the technology? To do what you do. And he said, you have to learn the tools like the back of your hand. And the more impressive the tools are, the more you need to know them, like the back of their hand so they can become invisible. And the point that he was making was you have to know the tools, you have to have the fundamentals, you have to know your stuff, but then you have to make all the tools disappear so you can get into the experience of get to the point of creating the experience of the movie. And that is where that is where I think. I would be willing to say that that's a that's a really important part of client advisory. When you get to the point where you have clean numbers, you have your tech stack, you know, you have all the foundations. Now you're saying, okay, what is the experience in my head? And the client's had what needs to happen, what's getting in our way? That's when the really powerful stuff happens.
Adam (00:23:19) - That's so interesting because I was going to ask you, you know, the evolution of the digital platforms and technologies, you know, just kind of thinking about how accountants and, you know, how they can adapt their storytelling and communication strategies to still stay relevant and engaging. And I think that for a lot of us, we like to show off those cool tools, you know what I mean? So, we go right to the reports and stuff. But I wrote down whenever you're talking, like, make the tools invisible. And I think that's really. so my question is going to be how do we stay relevant? But to you, it's like, make sure that you know the tool so well that it's not that they're so focused on, you know, kind of the conversation, if you will, as opposed to really focusing on the tools. Right. So even if that stuff's getting really cool and slick, it's like more for us. And then just kind of focus on the storytelling is that is that kind of how I'm hearing that?
Jeff (00:24:10) - Well, I would say I mean, again, I want to.
Jeff (00:24:16) - I want to make sure people understand that this is not just storytelling, because a lot of people, they think with that word storytelling and they say, oh, talk about what happened last night. I'm talking way bigger strategic picture of which tactical storytelling is just one of an entire toolbox of tools, of communication. So, that's one of the elements here. It is so much broader than telling a story in the traditional sense. But, let me go back. Let me go back to clarify what. So, what's the what's the specific question on your mind right now, Adam?
Adam (00:24:55) - Well, I was just, you know, the more and more you know, you hit on it earlier about the AI and everything. And again, these things are becoming more and more prevalent, which to some degree, you would think would push us out because they are becoming, you know, a little bit more dynamic. You know, clients are going to be able to ask them questions. They're going to be able to prompt data.
Adam (00:25:12) - They're going to be able to do a lot of those things. But I mean, I think that whenever, whenever I'm considering AI and all these other different tools, it goes right back to the fact is that you have a balance sheet and you have an income statement. You don't know how to make them work together to drive to your goal. So, you know, regardless if an AI product can show you why something was off, it's not explaining. You know, it's not making that correlation to your business model and your future planning and all those kind of things. So, I was just trying to figure out I was going to ask you from a strategic communication standpoint, how do you how do we make sure that there's enough space for us in that, in that regard? But what I, what I heard you say was by knowing those tools so inside and out, making them our tools that we can make them kind of appear invisible, if you will, to the client, because we're, you know, guiding that conversation, that communication strategy.
Jeff (00:26:08) - Yes. And I will say, man, that there you think people are freaking out in accounting about AI. You want to talk to some of my friends back in Hollywood who are saying, I can make pictures. I can generate sounds and mix sounds and they can write scripts.
Jeff (00:26:27) - You know, there are a lot of people who are really scared and, so that that's, you know, the question is, how do you maintain the humanity? What is the human element in all this? And one of the really big hurdles of humanity is it is next to impossible to read the label from the inside of our own bottle. How many people have you seen get a gold medal at the Olympics on their own? Everyone has a coach. Everyone has an advisor who operates at an elite level. And that, I think, is what advisors really need to lean into and say, hey, yes, the tools are amazing, the tools are slick. They're adjusting faster than we can, faster than we can imagine.
Jeff (00:27:14) - But man. What's on your mind? What's on your heart? What do you actually want? Because no AI platform is going to tell you that, and no one is going to be able to say, have you thought about this when all the time you've been stuck in your head going there instead of over here?
Adam (00:27:33) - Yeah, I mean, that makes total sense. So, in kind of that same train of thought, you know, can you outline a, you know, a few communication skills that, I mean, I think that you think are critical for success whenever, you know, interacting in client advisory roles.
Jeff (00:27:48) - Yes, the number one is go back to that definition of what a story is, where the character wants something, overcomes obstacles to get it, and experiences transformation as a result. Then when you get that, just ask yourself, what are the storylines happening right now? How are they lining up? And include yourself in that as the advisor, as a business owner, as whatever and say, what do I want? What does the business want? What does the client want? What does the board want? What did the VCs want? What do my what does the audience want? What does you know all in search insert stakeholders here because the more storylines you get in the conversation, the more complicated things can get.
Jeff (00:28:31) - But the conversation always centers around how can we get the stories to line up so that everyone can get what they want? So that's the first thing that I would say is really figure out that story definition and apply it to your own position that, you know, right there. That's going to be a game changer for someone, guaranteed. Then the next thing is when you figure out. What to take from what's on the surface and how to apply it to what people truly care about. That is where deep emotional and psychological connections happen. That is what I call the thing under the thing. And when we when you talk about that, some people say, oh, well, you're talking about symbolism, right? And well and I say, yes, that can be part of it. I mean, because if you look at, if you look at an American flag, it's just stars and stripes in a, in a design. But man, there are thousands of things of, of ideas, sometimes diametrically opposed ideas that people have attached in their hearts and minds to that design, that visual design.
Jeff (00:29:41) - We make meaning out of things every moment, out of every day. So if you see the number 1 million or 50 million, what does that number mean? Well, it can mean all kinds of things. It can mean this is how much debt we have. This is how much sales we have to get. This is how much this is what my you know, this this is what I could pocket if I sell or just. It all depends on the meaning that you attach to the surface thing. So that's the next question. Once you figure out that storytelling, the strategic view of storytelling, start thinking about what's on the surface and what are the things hanging out underneath the surface. What are the things under the thing that people truly care about?
Adam (00:30:25) - Is that cool? Just a straight up ask the client, like, what does that mean to you? You know, that kind of thing. Whenever you're getting to some of those items, whenever you're like, hey, we did, you know, 12% EBITDA, you made 11, you know, $1.1 million, you know, and then just basically call it out, say, hey, what does this mean to you? What do you what do you think about whenever you hear these numbers, those kind of things and just try to pick their brain a little bit about whether they're going to evaluation and a potential sale or they're going, hey, it means I got money in the bank.
Adam (00:30:53) - It means, you know, I'm doing a good job, those kind of things. So do you. Do you suggest just like calling that out in the conversation sometimes?
Jeff (00:30:59) - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the best things you can do as an advisor, as a coach, is to have a super powerful list of questions. Nine out of ten times the answers that the real answers that matter are lying in the hearts and minds of your audience, and the hearts and minds of your client. So, when you can take your expertise and make the tools of that expertise disappear such that the only thing remains is the experience of being guided to help find the answers. That's, asking great questions is a fundamental part of that for sure.
Tom (00:31:41) - Now what Jeff's talking about. Adam also seems to fit very much in line with you, always encouraging us to spend more time thinking about the client. And often it's come in terms of get the processes and the tools figured out. So, we're not spending all of our time there.
Tom (00:31:54) - That frees us up. Because, Jeff, a lot of what you're talking about does require some really good thought, right? What are who are all the stakeholders and what are their stories and how do they connect and what to think under the thing that takes some really good thought, which is what we should be giving to our clients. It's easy. If you let the tools take up all of your time, they'll take it all up. And if you don't make that more efficient, you're spending all your time just getting that part.
Jeff (00:32:18) - Yeah,
Tom (00:32:19) - correct. If you don't mind, if I come back as one of the, one of the tools you taught me was that and but therefore.
Jeff (00:32:23) - Yeah.
Tom (00:32:24) - And if you don't mind telling me, telling sort of how that works because it also goes into the value of the coaching. So, you and I work through a client problem. I'll tell what this was in a second. But I found myself the way I approached it, very different using this tool and then also going through sort of a rough draft with you and then sort of dramatically changing it into a successful piece and doing that.
Tom (00:32:44) - Yeah. But coming to with a disagreement, kind of what are we agreeing on? But there's something different. But and then therefore here's what we should do. And I had a client that had graduated to where he was no longer using me as a CFO. They hired an internal person. Great success. They were continue to use our tax team. And without getting too technical about all the accounting pieces, there was a tax law change last year related to research expense that you couldn't deduct as more in this client thought he this was a terrible idea. And something else I knew about the client was he was really good at arguing. And one of the things that made him successful is he would listen to opinions and then choose something. So, me included expert and saying, you should be doing A, but there's options B and C, and he'll go, yep, I heard you, I'm choosing B. And he was good at that. So, in the arguments with our tax team, he had decided I want the taxes done this way.
Tom (00:33:34) - I'm not going to follow this rule around the research to the point where our tax team said we won't do the return for you, and we were really at risk of losing that client. Yeah. So, I reached out to him and said, hey, would you like to have a conversation? And after you and I talked about it, I kind of went through kind of this and you helped me get through the and but therefore and the way I approach a conversation was very different, including I sort of took it as I was excited about it, kind of let me just get some data and see how this goes. And that took some of the risk out of it. But I also let him tell me what he thought was going on and then said, are you open to a different opinion? And just said, hey, here's the. And you and I both agree this new law is bad for you. And for years you've done the R&D tax credit kind of stuff that you've done. He's like, yep, I said, here's the difference.
Tom (00:34:19) - The but you think you have a choice of saying, if I don't take the tax credit this year, I don't have to follow the new law and call research. He's like, yep. So I explained to him how those were really two different things, and he didn't have the choice and therefore was if you choose to do this, you have set up a huge red flag for the IRS by saying, I had research in all these past four years. When I got the credit, suddenly a new law comes out and I claim I don't have any research. And he's like, oh, and he asked me a couple of questions, but he went back and allowed us to return that way. Yeah, it was using this technique, though. I think that really helped. And he felt listened to. And so you're coaching help. But also that tool helped a lot in that approach.
Jeff (00:34:58) - Yeah. Well and so. And just to extend that a bit. The fact that that client didn't leave and that they're still staying.
Jeff (00:35:10) - Right. That's you know, that is a significant to us, right? Yeah. That that that's money going right into the company's pocket in exchange for valuable services like what you just described. Worth every single penny, man.
Tom (00:35:23) - Right. And I remember mentioned you afterwards. I mean, my conversation with him was like a Friday at like 530 when he texted back and said, hey, can you talk? And I'll be honest, my reaction was, I don't want to, you know, I'm done for the week. Why would I want to have this contentious conversation? And luckily, and probably partly because I well, I was thrilled after that conversation and he was happy to. It was something I should have done, but I even approach it sort of in a minute. Like calling like, this is not where I want to be spending my time. And Friday at 530.
Jeff (00:35:49) - Yeah. So, I mean, you can see this is not about telling a story over the watercooler. This is looking at communication strategy, human connection and saying, how can we help our people get what they want.
Jeff (00:36:03) - That's the big picture of what's happening here.
Tom (00:36:06) - Yeah.
Adam (00:36:08) - Yeah. I mean, we talked about, you know, kind of the outline for success. What about the pitfalls? I mean, what are some of the common things that you're hearing or seeing things that we should definitely avoid at all costs. You got any a short list of any of that stuff?
Jeff (00:36:21) - I think when people talk about. Now. The. One of the big things is when you use a tool, for instance, like Abt, which we don't really have time to get into the details of how it works and how it's powerful. But one of the big pitfalls that people get into is the idea of. We're hammering on different problems and we're not agreed on the same points of conflict. And that's why something like this Abt tool really forces you to get clear on. Okay, what is the problem? What's the what's what do we want, what's keeping us from getting it. And then when you back up from that and say, okay, what do we actually both want? What can we what future can we paint for ourselves? That were both agreed on.
Jeff (00:37:15) - Then you start from a place of agreement, then you start saying, okay, and here's what's keeping us from getting that. And then when you are when you're actually talking about the same thing, you don't go around in circles and say, oh, well, that's but, but this thing and you say, no, but that thing, you know, that's and then everyone just ends up frustrated. I'd say another pitfall that people talk about is that when they get into the idea of telling stories. As a tactical tool, which is absolutely an incredibly powerful thing. I mean, we've been doing it in one form or another all throughout this episode here. A lot of the times people will tell a tactical story for the wrong reason. They'll tell it to make themself look good as opposed to being of service to the audience. And if you tell a story that says, hey, look, I'm amazing. And the audience says so. I want to be amazing. I don't care about you.
Jeff (00:38:17) - How is it? How is this going to help me? You know, so that that's a that's a that is a danger for sure when it comes to telling tactical stories.
Tom (00:38:25) - If I can add just one thing to it that goes very much in line with one of our thinkings, which is we are the guide and the client is the hero on that journey. And so our job is to sort of help them get there. And this pitfall be the piece of like, hey, let me tell you how frickin awesome I am, and if I'm doing that, then I am not following that. You didn't approach, you.
Jeff (00:38:44) - Didn't see Yoda in this. In Star Wars, you didn't say, awesome, I am, I am amazing, I am
Tom (00:38:52) - yeah.
Jeff (00:38:54) - You know, that's not how it went.
Tom (00:38:56) - That was a good impression.
Adam (00:38:59) - I think you've seen the movie once or twice.
Jeff (00:39:00) - Minus the green skin in the air here. So yeah,
Tom (00:39:05) - Yeah. That's true.
Jeff (00:39:06) - It's so I will say one, one of the other elements of this is this is a very powerful thing to happen internally with clients.
Jeff (00:39:15) - It's also equally powerful externally when you're telling the world about who you are and what you do and why people should work with you instead of everyone else. And that's one of the places that I want to say that summit is such again, you guys are such rock stars because you're saying, hey, we are not a faceless company. We put people out here. I mean, for a lot of times, for a lot of times it was Jodi Grandin saying, getting up on stage and talking. And then, you know, Adam, you are you're working, doing the same thing and also working with clients behind the scenes. And you guys are trading off there. But when you guys figured out that, hey, we want to grow this thing, you said, hey, let's go into new verticals and let's get experts in those verticals and they can go out and talk to the world. And that is super, super cool.
Tom (00:40:09) - Yeah.
Adam (00:40:10) - In difficult.
Jeff (00:40:11) - Yeah.
Adam (00:40:12) - Yeah. but no, I mean, I do like the way you've been able to kind of demystify storytelling.
Adam (00:40:18) - I think that in its own right is a little bit, especially for more binary people where we're just like ones and zeros and thinking about, you know, financial stuff all, all day long. you know, we, you know, being able to hear the word storytelling, it's like, oh, man, do I have to tell my fishing trip and come up with all these analogies and. Right, you know, try to get is that how I'm trying to create relationship? But, you know, what you're really talking about is strategic communication. And it's and it's just the everyday stuff. So now you don't feel like you have to come up with an actual story, but you can use kind of the, the tools from the story inside of it, you know, to help kind of guide those strategic conversations, which I think is, is super helpful. And, and I do kind of the same thing, but, But I also liked your point of, you know, making sure you start with a common, common ground where you agree.
Adam (00:41:14) - because that's always been kind of a secret to de-escalate a situation. One of our clients upset is, you know, you kind of get you kind of match their tone level and you're like, yep, that's I'm upset about that to like get, you know, make sure that you're kind of coming from that common place and then you can kind of slowly guide them to somewhere else. And we always tell the team we're always like, the answer is always yes, but so, so I can always agree with you, Jeff. I'll always say yes, but this is what you need to do. And then you might go, I don't like that. I'd be like, yeah, me neither. So, let's come up with a different let's come up with a different plan. And they're like, oh, okay. You know what I mean? And it's an easy you know, they're not defensive right out of the gate because they hear you agreeing and then saying what they have to do. And then whenever they hear on the unrealistic expectation, they're like, doesn't seem like a very, good path.
Tom (00:42:06) - So, yeah. so those are those are great points, I think, in terms of avoiding, you know, pitfalls of coming in, just ready to stand on your ground and, and oppose them or tell them what they're going to do, you know, already have that story preconceived and not meeting them where they're at.
Jeff (00:42:22) - Yeah.
Jeff (00:42:23) - Well, I mean, when people when people look up storytelling and brain science or neuroscience, you'll learn all sorts of things about the chemicals that the brain dumps into the bloodstream when they when they hear a story for either good or for bad. And man, when you, you know, if one was to go into a contentious conversation. With your guns blazing. your that you're literally causing your audiences, your audience or your client's brain to start dumping cortisol into their bloodstream. And their pulse quickens, their arteries widen up for blood flow, and they just their brain shuts down. It's just you're trying to escape the sabretooth tiger, preferably. So, man, starting at a place of here's what we all want.
Jeff (00:43:16) - Now let's get it together. Let's find that change. Let's make this change happen together. Man, that is a powerful, powerful way to be as an advisor when we help people get what they want.
Tom (00:43:27) - Yeah. Knowing that this is a skill that people can build. I love that you're continuing. You help me tremendously, but you're continuing to offer help people, because I really do think it's a key differentiator between a really good advisor and one who's mediocre in doing that, that ability to make that connection. If you don't mind if we switch then to something more fun. So, people heard Hollywood. That probably piques people's interest. I'm curious. People you have met any sort of most impressive famous person, and why you think of people that you met in Hollywood.
Jeff (00:43:58) - You know, I will say most of the most of the work I did in Hollywood was not it was in the post-production side. So, it was after everything had been shot. But every once in a while, every once in a while, you know, there was a time when.
Jeff (00:44:16) - I was on, I was backstage at a studio where I was helping with some of the content, and it was a daily entertainment news show. And Britney Spears was she was standing right there in the hallway waiting to walk on. And I'm looking at it. I'm going.
Jeff (00:44:36) - This. This.
Jeff (00:44:38) - She's not a large person, but man, just what thinking what she represents to all the people with millions and millions of people around the world. It was just kind of crazy to think about that.
Tom (00:44:50) - Interesting.
Jeff (00:44:52) - Yeah. So it was cool. And next thing you know, they said, please welcome to the studio, Britney Spears. And the crowd goes nuts. And now she walks in there and goes a show.
Tom (00:45:00) - That's a cool experience to see. Kind of the vaccines how it works.
Jeff (00:45:03) - Yeah.
Adam (00:45:05) - He left out the part where he was like, Hey Britney, Britney, I'm your biggest fan. Can I get an autograph, please? Like my face? Yeah. That's okay. We can, we won't.
Adam (00:45:13) - Don't worry. We'll edit that part out.
Jeff (00:45:15) - Yeah. That's the kind of stuff that gets too thrown out of the I guess you're thrown out of the studio.
Tom (00:45:20) - You're like, play it cool, play it cool, play cool.
Tom (00:45:23) - That's great.
Tom (00:45:24) - Well, Jeff, this is fantastic.
Tom (00:45:26) - Thank you very much. I mean, I've seen you live out this consulting piece that helped us. And I think you make a really compelling case in doing this. So I think it's wonderful.
Jeff (00:45:35) - Awesome. Thank you so much guys.
Adam (00:45:37) - Yep. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Outro (00:45:40) - Enjoy this podcast? Visit our website summit CPA Dot net to get more tips and strategy for achieving modern CPA firm success. We are here to be a resource in this ever changing industry.